No Heaven equals No Faith

[all_outta_angst]

I may have posed this question before...and some may see this as "Christian Bashing" but my curiosity begs the question.
 
 When non believers behave unmoral...like adultery and homosexuality...some/most Christians and society condemn those, but when they get caught doing the exact same things it's excuses such as...
 
 "Well...we're human too...and God forgives me anyways."
 
 "Christians aren't perfect either." 
 
 So why are others being condemned?!  ahhhh...catch 22...got it. 
 
 which leads me to the next point....a very important one I would like to stress out.
 
 Since your God is so awesome in His Holy awesomeness,
 
 ....Would Christians and Muslims exist, if they were never promised heaven to begin with?
If they could only live their moral codes and "do the right thing" and then die living for another ideology with no rewards but to do good.

Whatever you believe....If your answer is NO...then the premise is not authentic nor genuine just because your heaven exists. 

This is not a debate about being given grace (From God to Man).  It's about your choice (from Man to God).  If I gave you a million dollars to be my friend....you'd probably be a pretty fu#$ing good friend...but never a genuine one.
 
Thoughts?

[mslemon]

I'm your friend. *standing with hand out*   


I know the hypocritical thing has been brought up here before, because it always brings to mind the ex's grandmother. I'm pretty sure I've mentioned her here before. She was a real piece of work like that.


I don't feel one needs to be religious (follow a particular religion) to practice compassion and live a "moral" life. I don't think one needs to believe in a heaven, either for that, like dangling a carrot -  You better be good or you won't get here type of mentality.


I can't make up my mind if there's some worthwhile afterlife or not. But even if there isn't, why should I live my life being a jackass, murderer, cheat, robber, or any other thing that causes hurt to others? In my head, it's easier not to be immoral. Less lies to tell and less to remember who you told what to... 

[Antdog2181]

Ahhhh Angst you woke me up again.  Let this be a lesson to everyone that going to Cathlolic school does not make you an expert on the bible.  As Angst has proven just now.  Man cannot get into heaven based on any of his worldly deeds be it good or bad.  It is by faith in Christ alone that we enter heaven and NOTHING else. You must believe in your HEART that he came to this earth, lived as a man, died on the cross, and rose again.  That is ALL that is required.  Can you be evil all your life and still get into heaven?  My answer is yes.  Now granted you must repent of your evil ways (You can't claim you're saved, and continue to do the same evil, it doesn't work that way.)  #2 Heaven was created before man, not FOR man.  Angst you really should join a good bible study group in your area, because you could learn a lot about the simple questions you ask in a general bible study.  I'd recomend #1 Through the Bible w/Dr. Jay Vernon Magee (sp) or #2. The bible answer man.

[Antdog2181]

....Would Christians and Muslims exist, if they were never promised heaven to begin with?
If they could only live their moral codes and "do the right thing" and then die living for another ideology with no rewards but to do good.

Angst I almost want to laugh, but I think your questions are of pure curiousity so I'll idulge you.  Abraham (the father of christianity, Judeaism (sp), and Muslims)  was never promised heaven for following God.  Look it up and prove me wrong if you don't believe.  So your question kills itself becuase of your lack of knowledge.

[Antdog2181]

I guess I'll put it in simpler terms so others can understand.  Can a person like Stalin make it into heaven and a person like Billy Grahm (sp) still go to hell.  In my view and understanding of the bible the answer is without a doubt YES.  It all depends on that persons heart.  So Billy grahm did good deeds, fed the hungry, help the week, but he trully didn't believe in Christ in heart and on the other hand after everything Stalin did at the last second he REALLY did have a change of heart and accepted christ at the last second before death (granted he didn't have enough time to show outwardly his inner change) but he trully meant it in his heart then yes stalin would be in heaven.  Now we can go into the subject of status in heaven and who gets what based on there earthly deeds  but that would be a whole nother lesson I'd have to teach you because if you don't understand this part you probably won't understand heavenly rewards based on earthly deeds.  In a nutshell, Being good does not mean you get to go heaven (christian or Non-christian).  If any "christian" disagrees you are more than welcome to challenge me on that as well.

[Antdog2181]

I don't feel one needs to be religious (follow a particular religion) to practice compassion and live a "moral" life. I don't think one needs to believe in a heaven, either for that, like dangling a carrot -  You better be good or you won't get here type of mentality.

Religion will not get you into heaven.  I'll repeat Religion will not get you into heaven. Religion is just a set of practices and obserences (sp) that are set to help man in his/her spiritual walk with God (I'm only speaking on the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob).  By Grace alone are we saved from the curse of sin.  Again, Religion will not get you train ticket to heaven.

[ElementalElder]

Well one thing is for certain, I hope wherever I end up in the afterlife doesn't include you. How dare you. You come on a supernatural forum, and all i hear from you is about your precious God. And as if you didn't piss me off enough, who the fuck are you to talk all condescendingly to angst? Who the fuck made you an expert of any fucking thing? So you read a book. I read books all the time, you don't see me worshipping Eragon or Harry Potter. So what if your book was supposedly written thousands of years ago. In the end, its a fucking book. Written by HUMANS! You can sit here and try to argue that it was written by men "Inspired by God" until you are blue in the face, but anyone can see that you are delusional in your pursuit of some ultimate being who probably doesn't even exist. Your own book, which you all preach from as if speaking the words will change rock into fucking gold or something. Your own book goes against itself all the time, and yet you blindly follow it. What supposedly all loving being would condemn every single one of his people to a place of torture because they got tricked by one of his own servants? Would you beat your son because the maid accidentally broke a vase? No, you wouldn't. You would make the maid pay for the vase in some way. The only thing I learn when I listen to what you Christians have to say is why I cut all ties with the Christian church.  I hope that the Pagans had it right from the beginning, so that when you die you can deal with all the Old Gods that you shunned as "false and wicked." I hope the Gods have a cold, dark place where they can put you and your fellow Christians and leave you all to rot.

[all_outta_angst]

You must believe in your HEART that he came to this earth, lived as a man, died on the cross, and rose again.  That is ALL that is required.

you vastly oversimplify that these are all the requirements to achieving eternity with Christ. 

You were to FOLLOW and obey his teachings as well.  Jesus mentioned that he is to fulfill the bible...not one word or iota of the laws will change.  He never meant...not one iota will change until the prophecy is fulfilled which is what many Christians mistake.  These are the exact reasons why so many of these types of "sinful" Christians exist.  It's easy to say your a Christian...when it doesn't effect the person's lifestyle to change.

It is by faith in Christ alone that we enter heaven and NOTHING else.

again...to accept Christ means more than just the terminology of belief.  To have faith, means to live accordingly as your ideology precedes your lifestyle and enforces the theology. 

HOWEVER, I do love this quote from antdog.

Man cannot get into heaven based on any of his worldly deeds be it good or bad

because it's true according to your doctrine...what does matter is heart..and that usually....dictates how one should behave accordingly to their faith...so I don't mean to take your words out of context.  The post from me was more or less intended about the grandeur of heaven presiding our choices to follow God.  It has huge factors to why believers choose Christianity to begin with...sometimes through fear (Catholicism) and sometimes fear of annihilation (death)

Abraham (the father of christianity, Judeaism (sp), and Muslims)  was never promised heaven for following God

Muslims are promised heaven actually.  You are only looking at your own version of old test within your own doctrine.  Muslims  speak of it in terms of paradise actually.  It's in the Qu'ran. 

Hadith - Sahih Bukhari 4:51, Narrated Abu Huraira   

The Prophet  said, "A place in Paradise as small as the bow or lash of one of you is better than all the world and whatever is in it"

There are many many quotes.

So, please don't infer my lack of knowledge because of a perceived offense when I pose questions without ill intent.  You read my words as if they incur some type of vitriol when I think real Christians or atheists should be able to ask whatever they believe without fear of condescension.  (FYI-you also infer that I have never been part of bible study, which i have,and that I lack knowledge, not based on misinformation, but because I disagree with your doctrine. 

Can a person like Stalin make it into heaven and a person like Billy Grahm (sp) still go to hell.  In my view and understanding of the bible the answer is without a doubt YES.  It all depends on that persons heart

i agree...but your missing the original question I asked...Would many contemporary believers choose their lifestyle IF (hypothetically) they only had one life and no after...which was never answered by the way.  Whether heaven was created

before man not for

is irrelevant to the original question, which again...was never answered at all.  Yes or no...and a simple explanation why you think so.

So Billy grahm did good deeds, fed the hungry, help the week, but he trully didn't believe in Christ in heart

  I believe your bible is clear that no one can know anyone's heart but God and is classic example taken by "real" believers by adopting the mentality "he/she wasn't a real Christian" as if that had merit.  Fact is...we don't know anyone's heart...and to indulge your Stalin argument for a second.  God would want Stalin to hang out in heaven as long as he chooses God/Jesus? If a man should be judged by what he has done in his life, let it represent him in death as well.

Would you want our justice system to represent God's logic too?  If criminals were to be allowed "free" if whatever they did was just to repent?  My friend...just because you truly truly truly truly truly truly truly repent from whatever sin you might have offended...there's a thing called relapse...I've seen it many many times in my acquaintances that are heartfelt in their repenting only to "sin" again.  You or I can say that they never truly "repented", but that's like saying we know truly where their heart is.  Boy...if you could see a grown man cry...it is not me to judge where his heart lies.

Thanks for the backup ElementalElder, but I think your anger and your opinion are just as important as Antdogs as well.  I would be very disappointed if either of you were censored, but maybe you could enlighten your current status on why you believe what you believe.  Sometimes passion can leave little for room discussion unless it can inspire all of us.

Thoughts?

+1 for the "cat lady" just for "being my friend....with open arms....i mean...open hands! lol

[ejderha]

  I hope that the Pagans had it right from the beginning, so that when you die you can deal with all the Old Gods that you shunned as "false and wicked." I hope the Gods have a cold, dark place where they can put you and your fellow Christians and leave you all to rot.

I am very curios about this statement can you elaborate and give us more info.

[ElementalElder]

Ejderha, you are absolutely correct. My argument yesterday lacked any actual information, and for that I apologize. I had been previously offended by a perceived slight against me and when I came on here I pretty much vented on whoever I could. That being said, my statements still hold valid. As a former Christian who lived 7 years completely for God, and then turned to Paganism, It irks me when Christians either: a) Talk only of their God, leaving no room for the possibility of others or b) talk down to others, as Antdog appeared to be doing.  I would not have commented as harshly if he had chosen more polite language. I am fine with believing in whatever God or Gods you wish to, but when people get into battles about who is right and who is wrong, it only serves to aggravate and divide us. I may get a little hypocritical of myself here, when I state that one should not have to be threatened by the threat of Divine Retribution in order to be a good person. As to the old Gods Ejderha, what I meant by that was that no one truly knows whether there are Gods or God or nothing. But if the Pagan Gods are the ones who are actually the ones that exist, then you can bet that the followers of the religions that didn't believe in those Gods would probably get punished for their heresy. Though this argument could be used for any argument to argue for any Religion, I used it here to represent the Pagan Mindset. I use it only because I am constantly chided over my religion and asked what will happen to me if my faith is misguided and it turns out the Christian God is the correct one. However, I won't know until I die, so i choose not to worry about that as of yet.

[ejderha]

I am for one whit you on this one about Christian, i saw so much off them whit closed mind that there is no point in talking whit them about this stuff,
The reason i ask about this is because i was curios about some hidden knowledge that i don't know about. After some time i begin to understand more about my religion and off other religions, i saw that if you are stupid enough to ignore other religions and not have an open mind that it your entire  fault and not Gods.
God helps the one that is not living to pray for him and do good deeds. God helps the ones that are looking to find more about them and achieve enlightenment and whit that we can understand the world that we are living in better and remake what it original was

I am curios if you know about a sect,cult  that are called Masters or Keepers, it seems that when the priest of God come in this world they where massacred by them and they swear to destroy them and there religion.

[Antdog2181]

Angst I dont think ive over simplified it jesus equals only path to God.  I know about muslims and I know there history but do I believe in the end were the same, my answer is no.  if youve you studied I wont need to explain further on that one.  Ill get you a better response when I can get to my comp.

[Antdog2181]

Grrrrrrrr.  Im so angry at christians, I could beat a martyr to death.  Toy:happy0188:  Get it.

[all_outta_angst]

Angst I dont think ive over simplified it jesus equals only path to God

I think you did oversimplify.  What you stated I don't disagree with according to your doctrine.  I was simply adding that...yes...To be saved, Christians have to accept Jesus Christ as THE GOD and your personal savior...all i added to that statement was...."and to rebuke Satan and all that is evil in this world." (by living your life according to your faith)  I don't see what there is to disagree about.

but do I believe in the end were the same, my answer is no.

I never made the accusations that all paths lead to God nor did I ever infer it.  I think Christians of ANY length of time should be able to ask "dumb" questions no matter where they are in their faith don't you think?  Rather than have someone tell them that "they should know those things by now" doesn't exactly say come check out our faith and ask free thinking questions.

However, that said...my questions were general enough to ask the main theocracies being Muslim, Christianity and/or Atheists the question, do the rewards of an afterlife effect how we live our life today?

If Mohammad never ever mentioned Heaven would there be the amount of Muslims in the world we see today?
If Jesus and Old Test God never ever mentioned Heaven, would there be a large portion of believers we see today?

It's an honest question that is not inclusive.  Yes you can answer the question according to what you believe, and I won't knock that...I said multiple times that I agree with your statements Antog, but you never really answered my question to begin with.  Not one yes...and not one no....and the explanation you did give was never contextualized to the original question.

I really do understand your faith...but because even Christians are different, they also give different answers too, which is why even rudimentary questions are important.  Why can I only ask hard ball questions with no hypothetical situations?  It always seems consistent that people of faith have such a hard time answering Hypothetical when it concerns a personal faith.

It's no different than answering, "Would you shoot baby Hitler to save thousands?"

So why did I even ask such a "stupid" question to begin with?  It's about questioning people's minds and intent.  Why we make the decisions we do BEGINNING with rudimentary questions.  I know what I believe...this isn't a curiosity I have about Christianity that I don't know about...my post was about the people that follow that doctrine.

[Antdog2181]

Well one thing is for certain, I hope wherever I end up in the afterlife doesn't include you. How dare you. You come on a supernatural forum, and all i hear from you is about your precious God. And as if you didn't piss me off enough, who the fuck are you to talk all condescendingly to angst? Who the fuck made you an expert of any fucking thing? So you read a book. I read books all the time, you don't see me worshipping Eragon or Harry Potter. So what if your book was supposedly written thousands of years ago. In the end, its a fucking book. Written by HUMANS!

This first.  Who are you to tell me how to think or what to believe.  Yes, I speak about what I believe because what I believe to ME seems true.  You said you've read my post and that im basically a snot nose, know it all.  Well if you believe that then all I can say is so be it.  As far as Angst and I we've done this many times and If you read everything I've posted you'd know that I happen to like Angst as a person and the question that Angst ask. I've never posted in an OBE, EVP, or any other forum we're I didn't feel like I knew enough about the subject or had anything to contribute to it.  It's my opions and as long as I can, I will continue to share them. Angst makes me study and stronger in MY faith.  I guess you can say Angst and I have a friendly rivals/debaters.  Not once in all of conversation have I ever said to Angst or ANYONE that they should "go to hell."  Yet you accuse me of closed mindedness. When my opionion doesn't match yours.  I don't care what you believe in, I personally happen to think your wrong, but I don't hate you are think you should keep your mouth shut about it.  You ASSUME that I've never studied anything about other religons or cultures.  For your information I'm well studied and based on my life experences, studies of history, observations and inclusions of other religions i've come to conclusion that following Christ is right for me.  You don't like "Christians" like me because I'm bold and stand up for what I believe in.  You better believe it, and I will continue to. I DO NOT wish you any ill treatment or harm personaly.  But if you'd like me to go to hell, then that's your opinion.  You blast me for believing in SOME Book.  Well I don't care if your Muslim, Mormon, Peagan, Wicca, Satanist, or whatever aren't you still reading from SOME Book.  I just happen to think mine is right.  That's my perogative.  So before you go in defense of someone else, take a step back and look at the whole picture before you come to a conclusion.  Angst and I wish no ill will towards each other, we just happen to believe different things and I'm sure he/she enjoys my rants as much as I enjoy his/hers.