No Heaven equals No Faith

[Antdog2181]

I think you did oversimplify.  What you stated I don't disagree with according to your doctrine.  I was simply adding that...yes...To be saved, Christians have to accept Jesus Christ as THE GOD and your personal savior...all i added to that statement was...."and to rebuke Satan and all that is evil in this world." (by living your life according to your faith)  I don't see what there is to disagree about.

I never made the accusations that all paths lead to God nor did I ever infer it.  I think Christians of ANY length of time should be able to ask "dumb" questions no matter where they are in their faith don't you think?  Rather than have someone tell them that "they should know those things by now" doesn't exactly say come check out our faith and ask free thinking questions.

However, that said...my questions were general enough to ask the main theocracies being Muslim, Christianity and/or Atheists the question, do the rewards of an afterlife effect how we live our life today?

If Mohammad never ever mentioned Heaven would there be the amount of Muslims in the world we see today?
If Jesus and Old Test God never ever mentioned Heaven, would there be a large portion of believers we see today?

It's an honest question that is not inclusive.  Yes you can answer the question according to what you believe, and I won't knock that...I said multiple times that I agree with your statements Antog, but you never really answered my question to begin with.  Not one yes...and not one no....and the explanation you did give was never contextualized to the original question.

I really do understand your faith...but because even Christians are different, they also give different answers too, which is why even rudimentary questions are important.  Why can I only ask hard ball questions with no hypothetical situations?  It always seems consistent that people of faith have such a hard time answering Hypothetical when it concerns a personal faith.

It's no different than answering, "Would you shoot baby Hitler to save thousands?"

So why did I even ask such a "stupid" question to begin with?  It's about questioning people's minds and intent.  Why we make the decisions we do BEGINNING with rudimentary questions.  I know what I believe...this isn't a curiosity I have about Christianity that I don't know about...my post was about the people that follow that doctrine.

I get it now.  I don't thinks it "stupid". I miss understood the question at first.  hypotheticaly speaking how do you answer that.  I guess you'd have to ask as to what is the alternative.  An alternative of nothing, wandering around on earth.  No heaven, compard to...........?  I guess another question you could ask is would and Atheist be an atheist if nothing wasn't guarenteed?   I personally do not pray and ask for forgivness just because of heaven.  When I pray heaven is never the subject.  Would heaven be nice? I certainly think so. But when I pray, I ask that God forgive me for doing wrong or hurting someone's feelings or whatever, not because of the fear of hell but because I really want to be a good person to everyone (even Elementalelder).  If praying for me helps be become a better overall person, then whose to say that's wrong when it works for them.  I do believe in a literal hell but I don't seek heaven as the only reason to get out of it.  If I didn't answer maybe you could reprase it for me.

[ElementalElder]

I will let this video speak instead, since if i responded to you in text there would most likely be more miscommunication between us. If i offended you with my previous statements, i am sorry.

[Antdog2181]

Haha love the response.  I think we  just got off on wrong foot.  I wish no ill will towards you and hope to see or hear from you more in these forums.  I respect your personal opion and hope that we can learn from each other as time and the discussion go on.  You did say ive changed some stuff from the bible, if youd like to send me a PM to adress what ive changed id be happy to answer or tell you how I came to said opinion.  Other than, may we continue with the discusion.  Look forward to hearinv from you again.

[Antdog2181]

To elemental.  Just to be clear.  I never thought you were an "ass".  Yes, we have different opions on things and you and I feel just as strongly about our opinions. But an ass, not at all.

[all_outta_angst]

I guess another question you could ask is would and Atheist be an atheist if nothing wasn't guarenteed

Yes...just as many because that doesn't change the hypothetical outcome for them.  Most Atheists already accept that there is guaranteed nothing after they die.  So beginning with the original text.  I would like reply that, it is my opinion there would not be a lot of Faith based believers if the hypothetical were true.

Now, back to reality.  Heaven (to you and many believers) happens to exist and is true.  So begs a follow up question.  How important is heaven for your decision to follow your faith?   

I personally do not pray and ask for forgiveness just because of heaven

So I would naturally assume that it still has a huge outcome to your belief.  I understand that when you do pray and ask for forgiveness believers hope and long for the day to be in Heaven.  That was purpose of the hypothetical.  Is accepting Christ good enough for believers IF heaven never existed and death was final? (Hypo)

Or does the promise, and longing for heaven weigh just as much to your choice to accepting Jesus? (Reality)

So if that longing for heaven is great...how can most Christians be genuinely acting selfless (because of the outcome) when it's in their own personal interest where they end up?

So to put even more clearly....Is following and accepting Jesus more important to you? or getting into heaven?

This questions intent...I know what your thinking...If you follow Jesus, you get into heaven anyways.

But think of it like this....Would you rather have loving parents? (good enough)  or VERY RICH Loving parents? 
 If all you rather need is just loving parents....than why isn't loving God good enough without expectations?

[ejderha]

The religion whit one God promise people that they can go to heaven if they follow there way. It the only difference and the reason it survive for so much time. The promise of heaven and of a good life after this one made people believe in that religion whiteout it we can't be sure of the outcome but i guess science will had evolve and we may been living in a better world then this one ( my personal opinion).

About muslim, as i am one will say that i don't actually care so much if i go to heaven or hell since i already knew the answer from the start, thanks to my beloved gift. Some Muslim that i speak whit they aren't Muslim just because of the promise of heaven, they are because they saw the wonders that God offers to us and accept that there is one that watch and protect us. In the world where everybody remains alone at some time, the only think that is whit you is your faith. Perhaps in that time heaven sound wonderful and a place where people wanted to go but in this time faith represent the new hope, the promise of a good live if you live honorable.

[Antdog2181]

For me IF I believed that jesus was simply a man id still follow his teachings without the reward for heaven.  Just think if everyone could follow that one rule to love thy nieghbor as thyself.  Id dare to say heaven could be here on earth.  Loving parents who are rich would be nice, but I dont think in my mind it wouldnt trump the poor loving parents either. Love is key.  Would a lambo be nice,  yea.  If all they could afford is a pinto out love thats just as fine with me.

[ejderha]

We all have a reason for believing some of us are using for hope, love, redemption, hate, chaos, friendship,power, control  etc.
Religion had a reason to exist, had a purpose to allow humans to look inside them and see the light and the hidden knowledge that was carved, to find what they are and to allow them to live by a set of principles . However we begin to lose it, religion become a tool that is used by people to gain power and control over others. It become a reason to go to war and make chaos.
People will never be like they used to be as long they can't find first what they are before actually believing in something.
Like i said to people like me if you find darkness inside you and forbidden knowledge embrace it because it what you are and when you will understand that darkness you will see the true light. For us only in total darkness we will find the pure light that will guide us toward our purpose and creator.

[all_outta_angst]

this belongs in the science and religion rant, but I'll leave it here as a response to the replies:

About muslim, as i am one will say that i don't actually care so much if i go to heaven or hell since i already knew the answer from the start, thanks to my beloved gift

I used to think that there were absolute truths in faith because "I knew in my heart".  But if one can step outside of their self and realize that we all come with incredible bias based on our own unique lifestyles and experiences...truth becomes more subjective and abstract.  Here's why atheists have a hard time accepting faith:

Testimony does not equal fact.  This is an opinion that has more to do with lifestyle than it does with quantifiable evidence.
Mainstream science (biology,chemistry,astrology,physics etc) have a general consensus there is no evidence of a creator.  Secular belief states there is through creationism and intelligent design.  I would also like to note that there are many mainstream scientists that believe in a creator too, but they keep personal faith outside of objectivity because they are able to balance their faith with science.  Many "true" Christians say that these guys cannot serve TWO masters!  So it's not mainstream science necessarily rejecting other hypotheses.  Creationists would rather throw the baby out with the bath water.

There are at least 20 different mainstream religions.  Rather than pose the question to an atheist, "what if your wrong?"  How do you know your in the right faith?  As a Muslim, have you ever considered Christianity honestly without predisposed ideas that they are fundamentally wrong?  Is this not bias?  Vice versa.  I can tell you I used to go to Church and the whole shebang, and NEVER honestly considered Islam without the Christian perspective of Islam.  I never considered Hinduism without the Christian perspective of Hinduism.  How do you know your right if you can't look outside of your prerogative?

For an atheist, or even a Christian mainstream scientist, it's important for them to hold off on absolutes and test them in a lab before reaching a conclusion.  This is why they can serve "two masters".  Because they have no stake in the outcome of the experiment.  A creationist does because the product(conclusion) is more important than the process.

And I would like to stress that there is a HUGE difference of what defines as theory regarding science.  It does not mean guesswork.  The laymen scientist understands that ALL theories include things like Gravity too!  That's what makes science so great.  The theory of a flat earth has now known to be false.  Science changes all the time because new understandings and peer reviewed research ultimately reaches truths.  From an atheists perspective, the Creationists cannot change their hypothesis period, which is not true science at all.

By the way, there is a growing trend in people that use lack of science to justify a hypotheses the earth is actually flat.  Are we to question mainstream science about this too and accept their views into the classroom?

For me IF I believed that Jesus was simply a man id still follow his teachings without the reward for heaven.

-antdog

I would follow the contemporary stereotype we perceive as New Testament God (Jesus).  But, let's say Old testament God was just a man like Jesus saying things like he does.
Old Testament God says that anything in the ocean that is not finned or scaled is an abomination...like homosexuals...so don't eat shrimp folks.

I don't mean to mention these things to justify a distain in a particular faith, but to me, some scripture seem very illogical in thinking.

I just think there are many more believers, (particularly Christians) that have a hard time balancing what some scriptures say...because they don't have a choice but to believe everything in the bible as divine truths even though it was inspired by man.  I believe men make mistakes..and I believe the bible is also very biased considering the culture and context of old Testament. 

I'm sure if I were to talk to anyone with their personal faith and their interpretation of their God I would "fall in love" and think your Savior is awesome.  But I cannot ignore the personalities of God in his anger, jealousy, and moral code.

[jayfeath]

Im getting in on this topic a bit late so my appologies on that.  Looking back at the original question, and not any responces, I think even without a heaven you would have some very similar types of groups to the Christians and Muslims, etc.  Obviously I dont think they would be called by those specific names but there would be some type of groups that function in similar ways.  The reason I believe this is because people find others who think, act, behave and enjoy what they do, that is human nature.  So somehow they would find each other and do the things that they agree upon.  Even without some type of paradise in the afterworld, you would have people who would did things because they felt they were the "right" thing to do.  Think of all the people who treat others well and are helpfull, they do that because they believe it is just the right way to live and handle yourself.  It is not based off of their religion or lack of one.  Deep down people have a moral compass that they follow, and while society and religion helps to forge what is "right" or "acceptable" it does not control it completely.  Would you have a larger group of "bad" or "evil" people? probably, but you may also have a larger group of "good" people because they dont feel that they have to conform to a specific set of rules.  Just my thoughts on the matter.

[ejderha]

Heaven was used more like a bargain, you join this religion you have something to see after you die and join.
Not to mention it was used to motivate people in doing some thinks they didn't have the courage to do it. Let face it nobody wants to die for nothing, knowing that there is nothing for them. That the reason so many died, dies and will die in the future.

[all_outta_angst]

Even without some type of paradise in the afterworld, you would have people who would did things because they felt they were the "right" thing to do.  Think of all the people who treat others well and are helpfull, they do that because they believe it is just the right way to live and handle yourself.  It is not based off of their religion or lack of one.  Deep down people have a moral compass that they follow, and while society and religion helps to forge what is "right" or "acceptable" it does not control it completely.  Would you have a larger group of "bad" or "evil" people? probably, but you may also have a larger group of "good" people because they dont feel that they have to conform to a specific set of rules. 

I agree with that perspective.  I call those many "Good Doers" of no particular beliefs atheists.  The moral compass you speak of is not necessarily inherent, but a simple function of society that helps keep the "wheels greased".  If you don't have adhesiveness to a group, your tribe,group,city,town, or society fails to function and becomes extinct.  I understand that even the faithful are called and inspired to do many great things.  The church has done much good in humanity, though unfortunately it has brought much misery as well because of the perverse nature of authority.  (which God remains  silent on unless you lived during old testament.  Yes people have freedom of thought and choice, but back then there were almost immediate punishment for disobeying God during your natural lifetime.

Most believers/atheists think of their group as morally superior because they believe their morality comes from something external or internal.  Atheists, believe their morality comes internal.  Both are very different interpretations, and both are sort of right and wrong.

Morality can come externally (God vs Society)  and internal (Inherent vs church)  The operative word is where it comes from, and why it's important.  If an atheist is a good person but "rejects" God, by definition through a believer;  He or she is not a moral being in the eyes of God.  (for everything good comes from their Lord)

This is why a believers faith is attacked all of the time, because of their religion.  Not faith.  There is also the argument I have heard.

Religious Groups give the most charitable donations bar none than any other group to their society all the time...by doing good morally and ethically they have achieved through the ONLY means. (Externally) through God.

Here is a list of non religious inspired charitable organizations.

Unicef
World Health Organization
Doctors without Borders
Amnesty International
Planned Parenthood Federation of America
Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation
Freedom from Hunger
Second Harvest
...etc...the list is long. 

Looking at it from a perspective of logical means regards to moral and ethics.  If only good can come from God( externally) through inspiration and obedience.  How can so many Organizations exist by doing good without the notion of a God present (naturalism/internal)?

My point is simply, that most faith based will not concede it's possible that we can achieve moral code inherently.  Why not?  It doesn't go against your faith actually.  Through your perspective...we were created in the image of God.  Again...maybe...just maybe....God has evil in Him too?  It always lies in the eyes of the beholder.  If you can justify killing another human being, let alone eliminating whole genealogies, then maybe Atheists will take your faith more seriously when your religion seems Kah-Razy.  Rather than use God as authority...a lot of churches have substituted the church as authority....I guess spawning baby Atheists....so......thank you?

[Antdog2181]

I'm sure if I were to talk to anyone with their personal faith and their interpretation of their God I would "fall in love" and think your Savior is awesome.  But I cannot ignore the personalities of God in his anger, jealousy, and moral code.

I personally am not ashamed of the OT God and apperently neither is the Jesus I follow.  Matthew 5:17.  Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
New Living Translation

[mslemon]

Im getting in on this topic a bit late so my appologies on that.  Looking back at the original question, and not any responces, I think even without a heaven you would have some very similar types of groups to the Christians and Muslims, etc.  Obviously I dont think they would be called by those specific names but there would be some type of groups that function in similar ways.  The reason I believe this is because people find others who think, act, behave and enjoy what they do, that is human nature.  So somehow they would find each other and do the things that they agree upon.  Even without some type of paradise in the afterworld, you would have people who would did things because they felt they were the "right" thing to do.  Think of all the people who treat others well and are helpfull, they do that because they believe it is just the right way to live and handle yourself.  It is not based off of their religion or lack of one.  Deep down people have a moral compass that they follow, and while society and religion helps to forge what is "right" or "acceptable" it does not control it completely.  Would you have a larger group of "bad" or "evil" people? probably, but you may also have a larger group of "good" people because they dont feel that they have to conform to a specific set of rules.  Just my thoughts on the matter.

 


You said this better than I ever could!

[Star Specter]

I was browsing over this thread and came across the video response so I had to pop in and say you're pretty awesome, Elemental.